Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill Clinton and the DLC

Hillary Clinton has said that she has won more popular votes than her opponent, Barack Obama and is, therefore, more electable than he.  Some call this an outright lie and others, like myself, call this typical Clinton Triangulation, or, saying whatever it takes to win.

Bill Clinton perfected a way to find a middle strategy in every argument.  To say that Hillary Clinton has won the popular vote is partly true but she didn't "win" it in Michigan unless you view "undecided" as a worthy opponent.

Triangulation. Magical thinking.  Call it what you want.

But as we call it what we want it is important to remember what Bill Clinton left some of us after he finished eight years of triangulating.  Matt Bai writing in the NYTimes Sunday magazine last December wrote that in the view of some Democrats (myself included)

" ... Clinton failed to seize his moment and create a more enduring, more progressive legacy -- not just because of his personal travails and Republican attacks that hobbled his presidency, but because his centrist, "third way" political strategy, his strategy of "triangulating" ... sapped the party of its core principles." Bai goes on to say those critical of the Bill Clinton years (myself included) feel he "opened the door wide for Bush to come along and enact his extremist agenda with only token opposition."

Bill Clinton believes that George W. Bush has assaulted his progressive legacy.  In my opinion, if Clinton had a solid progressive legacy it would have withstood George W. Bush and Al Gore would be finishing his second term instead of an extremist.

We are now seeing the hand of Bill Clinton and triangulation over and over in Hillary Clinton's campaign.  It is an election strategy -- softening the core liberal principles, such as they are,  of the Democratic Party in order to win - that won him the White House twice.  It is a strategy meant to confuse by appearing to take the middle ground.  For instance, Hillary declines to be called a liberal.  She is a progressive.  What does that mean?  It is a smudgy middle ground and leaves the meaning up to a  kind of political finger in the wind interpretation.  

After I heard Hillary Clinton exclaim that she had more popular votes than her opponent I gave up on any hope that she could bring anything new to the Presidency if she were elected.  Hillary Clinton might be electable but her way of governing will be rooted in the past and could be  like chalk on a sidewalk on a rainy day.



Display:


I hated peace and prosperity n/t (2.00 / 16)


by Pacific John on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:50:20 PM EST

Re: I hated peace and prosperity n/t (2.00 / 8)

News report


by Pacific John on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:52:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hated peace and prosperity n/t (2.00 / 0)

If Hillary is going to claim credit for the best of Bill, she must also accept discredit for the worst of him.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:10:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hated peace and prosperity n/t (2.00 / 7)

well, Obama supporters don't want to give ANY credit to either Hillary OR Bill.


by colebiancardi on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:11:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You must not have read the diary (2.00 / 9)

This is one big smear: the '90s were evil and Hillary lead the coven:


We are now seeing the hand of Bill Clinton and triangulation over and over in Hillary Clinton's campaign.

by Pacific John on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:14:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hated peace and prosperity n/t (2.00 / 2)

Yes it is true.  Wives agree with EVERYTHING their husbands say and do.  Just ask my wife.

I imagine that Hillary was responsible for Monica too.


by Dave B on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:35:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I voted on her record alone (2.00 / 4)

and I voted for her.


by catfish1 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:09:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You hated peas and prosperity ? (2.00 / 3)

I only hated the prosperity.  Prosperity sux.

But what do you have against the peas ?  I love peas...they are yummy ?  Even my daughter loves them.

You, sir, have a lot to explain !!


If you follow history with a long enough arc, things always get better, and the truth always prevails...Gandhi
by SevenStrings on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:25:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I loved Impeachment... (1.33 / 3)

...and a Republican Congress and DOMA and "Don't ask ,Don't tell" and Hillarycare.  Does Hillary get credit for all of those things too?


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:54:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If only Bush could serve a third term (2.00 / 3)

God the 1990s were awful.


by catfish1 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:10:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If only Bush could serve a third term (1.00 / 0)

The 1990's were great, but pretending that Clinton had anything to do with the dot com bubble that fueled the economic growth of the 1990's is naive.  BC was an incredible Politician but he stumbled quite a bit too.  DOMA is a disgraceful example of such a stumble.  As was his impeachment.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:24:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

he did have to do with deficit reduction (2.00 / 1)

which was a large part of the economy back then. The dot-com was everything agrument is right out of the RNC talking points book. Ending the deficit like Clinton was extremely important, so much that Alan Greenspan endorsed his 1993 budget with a passion, http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.ht ml?res=9F0CE0DC163EF935A25751C0A96595826 0 The Clinton adminstration also promoted the internet with much funding, and free trade that they supported may have played an important role. DOMA was a smart move too, it was not only veto proof, but Clinton wasn't gonna lose re-election by being against it. Gay marriage cost Kerry 2004. Impeachment wasn't his fault either, it was the GOP positioning themselves for 2000.


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:54:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: he did have to do with deficit reduction (1.00 / 0)

Deficit reduction was a good thing and he deserves credit for it, but if you think the government budget drives the economy then you are wrong.  It is the opposite.  

We will never agree about DOMA.  

Impeachment was his fault.  He did something wrong and lied about it when he got caught.  Let's not pretend he bears no responsibility for his decisions.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 03:02:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary (2.00 / 12)

We all understand.  It is key for BO and his supporters to smear the Clinton's and especially Bill Clinton.  That way BO can claim some fairland legency from JFK.

It is disgusting that democrats smear Bill Clinton and what you all are going is driving more moderate democrats to McCain.  And the sad thing is BO and his supporters dont seem to care.  All they care about is taking the party over.  IMHO we may see a new class of voters.  They will be called McCain democrats.  Moderates and especially older women who feel they and their candidate was run out of the democratic party.  

But then from what i have seen BO supporters really dont care.  They only care about smearing the legency of the clinton's.

david


by giusd on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:55:25 PM EST

Re: Hillary (1.20 / 5)

Obama and his supporters care about the future, not idol-worship for a corrupt political dynasty and its hyped legacy.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:12:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary (2.00 / 6)

hyped legacy?  
corrupt political dynasty?

man, your statement is so off track it is not funny.  Hillary & her supports also care about the future and building on what was considered by the majority of Americans, a peaceful & prosperous time.  

with your type of logic, all efforts made the democratic party since the 1930's should be shitcanned, because Obama didn't think of them.


by colebiancardi on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:15:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary (1.50 / 2)

"Hillary & her supports also care about the future"

Then let them stop touting the past as a reason to support her -- a past that was in fact, whether jobs or tawdry sex, Bill Clinton's and not Hillary's.

As for currupt political dynasry -- yes, the DLC and the Clintons are corrupt with corporate cash. And if the Clintons aren't stopped now we will be one step closer to establishing a Clinton/Bush dynasty in the WH. It's rather pathetic that the GOP is a wholly owned subsisidiary of the Bush Mafia. But fortunately the majority of Democrats have decided to overthrow the Clinton Cabal.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:55:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary (1.66 / 3)

The troll rating was for right wing attacks against a Democrat on a site that supports Democrats.


by Dave B on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:38:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary (none / 0)

"The troll rating was for right wing attacks against a Democrat on a site that supports Democrats."

You do know you're at MyHRC, right?  "Right wing attacks" are leveled at Obama about every millisecond.


by Rumproast on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:04:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary (none / 0)

""Right wing attacks" are leveled at Obama about every millisecond."

should read: "Right wing attacks" are leveled at Obama the Democratic nominee about every millisecond.


Face it, Hillary. It's over.
by dback on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:30:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Doing anything to win? (2.00 / 6)

For some reason, all Hillary's attempts to "win" the nomination have been portrayed as disgusting and Clintonesque.  It's almost as if Obama supporters/campaign don't want to portray that their candidate is really "trying to win", which of course he is as he should.

To say that Hillary "will do anything to win" is to imply that she will cheat to win.  But of course, Obama campaigners would never say that because that would be the "same old politics" of Washington - and might just be acting like Republicans - and might be trying to split and destory the Democratic party.  


by Southern Mouth on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:13:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary (none / 0)

I agree that some Obama supporters go over board in their criticism of the Clintons.

But I don't see what it is unacceptable for Democrats to not care for the Clinton wing of the party.  I won't go over my objections to Bill's governing philosophy (and yes, I know Hillary was not created with his ribs, but I will take that argument a lot more seriously once its made to the "what do you object to about the 90s, peace or prospertiy).  But in the 90s the DLC wing tried, and did take over the party.  I didn't care for it, but I campaigned for him.  If Hillary wins, I will do the same.

So I agree painting either of the Clinton as the devil is dumb (I admit that some do this, but I think your are vastly overstating it), even though I disagree with them alot, they have done a tremendous amount of good.  However, I don't understand why all Democrats have to genuflect before them.  


by labor nrrd on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:38:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary (2.00 / 1)

I was critical of Bill Clinton long before Obama was heard of.  jI will vote for whomever is the Democratic nominee.


by Kate Stone on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:57:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary (none / 0)

"I agree that some Obama supporters go over board in their criticism of the Clintons."

Tit for tat. But at least Obama's supporters aren't tearing down their own party's nominee.


Face it, Hillary. It's over.
by dback on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:27:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill (2.00 / 3)

All you have to do is listen to Gregory & Buchanan at MSNBC, Roberts of ABC, and Gergen of CNN.

All these political analyst explain it perfectly.

"Bill Clinton clearly UNDERSTANDS that No Democrat can win the White House in this day & age UNLESS you are POSITIONED right smack in the MIDDLE.
No perceived Liberal Democratic can ever win the White House. That's the REALITY that MOST Liberals could Never Ever accept"

Do you think Ted kennedy, Jesse Jackson & Al Sharpton will be seen or heard of this Fall crisscrosssing America for Obama ????

For god's sake, you don't even hear from these people anymore in PA, OH & TX and we are only in the primary.


by libdemusa on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 12:57:56 PM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill (1.00 / 1)

Honestly at this point I don't see either democrat winning.  I think we have already snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.  The Clinton campaign has been saying that Obama's victories and supporters "don't matter" and giving them good reason to stay home if she somehow gets the nomination.  The Obama campaign has somehow perceived to be slighting the Clinton legacy (which btw, it would be absolutely, positively out of line for President Clinton to be in the middle of this race if it was anyone else) and all the DLC democrats will be telling the "middle ground" to stay away.

This whole thing has created huge rifts in the democratic party after the kitchen sink came out.  There is pretty much no way to put humpty dumpty back together again.


I CAN HAZ BAHROCK DONASCHON?
by kasjogren on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:05:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill (none / 0)

No one can see the future that precisely.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:08:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill (none / 0)

"I don't see" is not the same thing as "this is what is going to happen...bank on it"


I CAN HAZ BAHROCK DONASCHON?
by kasjogren on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill (2.00 / 0)

Just pointing that what you don't see isn't necessarily not there.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:19:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill (none / 0)

Yesterday this individual, Kasjogren, said it's ok to call people white trash. Today he/she can see the future equally well as God. One can only shutter to think about what tomorrow may bring.


Definition of a republican moderate---someone who want's only 50 years in Iraq.
by pollbuster on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:08:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill (1.00 / 1)

I said my own family used the term my whole life as a joke.  And I said this was my opinion.

Would you like to troll me some more?  On Sunday I let in 4 goals playing keeper in my soccer league.  I didn't finish all my yard work this weekend either.  Oh, I often go three days in between shaving.

So there is some more information for you to personally troll me with.  Gotta love Clintonian politics.


I CAN HAZ BAHROCK DONASCHON?
by kasjogren on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 05:38:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The split was a foregone conclusion (none / 0)

When Obama started winning and gaining more support, it was apparent to all - and mostly to dancing-in-the-streets Republicans - that the Democratic party was facing a HUGE rift.  

African Americans have voted Democrat by and large - and for good reason.  When you have Republican "greats" like the lauded Ronald Reagan making snide crappy remarks about welfare queens and setting out to gain the south - the Reagan Democrats - based on racial division, what party was the logical party for African Americans AND for those who sought equality for all?

I don't know if Obama knew that he was going to be as appealing as he is to so MANY voters, but he's run a great campaign and scored big.  I disagree that HRC should step aside and Obama says the same.

We have to trust our party that we WILL come together when the primary is over.

BUT - keep this in mind as well.  The American public is not wild about a Congress AND the Presidency all of one party.  So with Republicans leaving Congress in droves - like rats jumping ship - leaving Democrats to clean up the absolute MESS (and take the blame), this helps to position McCain for a win - simply to balance Congress.


by Southern Mouth on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:25:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not just political (2.00 / 5)

It's cultural. It is no accident that the only three Dem presidents in the past 40+ years (incl Gore) have been from the Jacksonian, not the Whig, wing of the party.

I'm sure the Obama people are not self aware of this, but the elitism and messianic aura around their campaign alienate most Americans.


That's why Hillary is going to win the Dem primary popular vote, by all reasonable estimates. If you can't win political and cultural Dem centrists, there is no way to win in the Nov.

by Pacific John on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:07:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not just political (none / 0)

How do you figure.  Even under the twisted MI logic, Obama will probably grab the 200k+ lead back after NC.


by mefck on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:11:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How do I figure? (2.00 / 1)

That we only win when we go with Jacksonians? Or that Hillary will win the popular vote?


Both are self explanatory. NC happens on the same day as IN. Hillary will have big wins in WV, KY and PR.


by Pacific John on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:21:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not just political (none / 0)

"I'm sure the Obama people are not self aware of this, but the elitism and messianic aura around their campaign alienate most Americans."

Rove might as well have written that.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:21:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He'll write lot wore than that (2.00 / 2)

And he won't be constrained by the truth like we are here.


by Pacific John on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:22:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He'll write lot wore than that (1.50 / 2)

"like we are here?"

Your rovian comment shows you obviously don't feel constrained by truth.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:19:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He'll write lot wore than that (2.00 / 1)

Dude, the Obamasphere, those mostly white, mostly male people, who make up 90% of the wired Dem presence, broadcast disdain for working class Dems and and the rest of the 53% or cross-tabbed Dems who keep voting for Hillary. The campaign glows neon with elitism. Look. This should be clear: there is something ineffective about an Obama campaign that has a dominant TV and Internet message machine but can't sway over at least half of all Dems. Right? The message is out there, it's just that voters ignore it. I, for one, have never seen anything like it. This is the only time I can recall when outspending an opponent 4:1 actually hardens opposition.


The messianic thing is no invention either, and Obama's own supporters recognize it.

by Pacific John on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:41:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not just political (none / 0)

It doesn't matter if she wins the popular vote.  It is the delegate count that matters.  


by Kate Stone on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:59:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are correct. (none / 0)

The superdelegates will be able to choose the one who is ahead in the poplar vote, or the one who has the most pledged delegates.


by Pacific John on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:42:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are correct. (2.00 / 1)

The superdelegates can ignore all of those factors and look to the electability of a candidate.
 
by colebiancardi on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:45:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Buchanan? (none / 0)

Seriously? We need to live up to Buchanan's standards?

Bill Clinton ran and got elected as a center-left candidate. He proposed, during the campaign, to let gays serve openly in the military, for example.

It's precisely his triangulation and, frankly, wimping out on his ideals, that lost us Congress in 1994, and led us to where we are.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:13:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Buchanan? (2.00 / 1)

yes, he proposed.  Reality took a different turn.  and it did a hell of lot good as well - the polls back in the 1990's had Americans totally disapproving of gays in the military.  Look at the polling today - night & day difference.


by colebiancardi on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:16:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

When Truman (none / 0)

racially integrated the Armed Forces, this country was still segregated in large parts of it, parts that were a key part of the Democratic coalition.

The difference between Truman and Bill Clinton is political courage.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:39:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Truman (2.00 / 1)

and it took 15 years for it to be completely done away with.

it is time we got rid of Don't Ask, Don't Tell.  But it served its purpose and it should be removed, with new laws put in place so that the military cannot discriminate against sexuality.

However, what BC did was political courage, based on the democratic losses that happened in the house in the next year.

it may not have been what you wanted, but when the military was and is still against gays serving in the military, it was the best that could be done.  Unlike black Americans, the military was not against them serving, just that they didn't want them serving alongside whites.  


by colebiancardi on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:50:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What? (none / 0)

DADT was a sign of political courage in the face of a defeat that hadn't happened yet?

Coincidentally, I dated someone who was kicked out over the Clinton policy. The military is filled with gays, a fact not unknown to the leadership and presumably the President. So Clinton passed his policy knowing it was discriminatory.

You know, it would be really refreshing if some people were to admit that Clinton engineered some major fuckups. DADT is one of them.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:25:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What? (2.00 / 1)

I don't believe it was a major fuckup, because of what was occurring before that bill was signed.

it was a step in the right direction.  Not my fault that the military still doesn't want gays in their organization (only 25% of them approve of having gays serving in the military).


by colebiancardi on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:27:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Truman (none / 0)

Excellent point.  Clinton's could have allowed gays to serve openly in the military but he didn't have the stones to do it.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:57:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

lets compare gays vs. blacks (2.00 / 1)

most Americans thought in 1993, and today still, think of homosexuality as immoral and disgusting yet CHOSEN by those who live the lifestyle. The military didn't want any gays in it, and the polls in the early 90's were heavily against it. Clinton didn't care, he wanted to let them in, but 20 years of Nixon/Ford and Reagan/Bush stacking the military ranks was not gonna allow that, so Clinton did what he could. Clinton also lacked military cred because his non service hurt him at the time.

with blacks, not as many Americans thought so lowly of them as they did gays, even in the 1940's. People knew that you were born blacks, but people didn't and don't think you're born gay largely. The military didn't mind blacks actually serving in it, only wanted them segregated. But blacks were never banned outright like gays were before Clinton. Truman also had military cred, he'd served in WWI and won WWII, and the army was stacked with Roosevelt/Truman appointees from 1933-1948


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:12:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lets compare gays vs. blacks (1.00 / 0)

He could have done more but he chose not to.  He also let DOMA become law.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:26:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lets compare gays vs. blacks (2.00 / 0)

and what was happening before the law?  Gays were greated with flowers & candy in the military?

jeez.....


by colebiancardi on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:28:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lets compare gays vs. blacks (2.00 / 0)

greeted, not greated.  I have to type slower


by colebiancardi on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:29:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lets compare gays vs. blacks (1.00 / 0)

They were kicked out of the military. Just like they are now.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:32:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lets compare gays vs. blacks (2.00 / 0)

only if they tell.  I know, my nephew is going to boot camp and he is keeping his mouth shut.


by colebiancardi on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:35:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lets compare gays vs. blacks (1.00 / 0)

That isn't good enough.

Good luck to your nephew.   I hope he gets what he wants out of the service.


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:43:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lets compare gays vs. blacks (2.00 / 0)

I agree, it isn't good enough NOW.  But when it became law, it was revolutionary and I bet that caused a lot of those seat switches the following year in congress.

thank you about my nephew - we all don't want him in the military at this point, but it is something he thinks he needs to do.  So, we support him - it is sad, because serving our country is a wonderful thing to do.  but this fucked up situation in Iraq is not worth it.

a classmate just dropped his friend off at the airport the other day - he is going back to serve a 3rd tour - he isn't doing it for the "mission" but that he doesn't want some inexperience kid getting blow up.

sad.


by colebiancardi on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:48:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There's so much fail here (1.00 / 0)

that instead of rebutting each instance of wrong, I'm just going to hope that some gay Clinton supporters read it.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:28:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There's so much fail here (2.00 / 1)

how many years did it take for the Civil Rights Act to be passed?  How many years since we fought the Civil War?  How many years did it take for Affirmative Action?

my goodness, BC was the first pro-gay president that I can remember, and you shit over him because he didn't do what it took hundreds of years for civil rights for blacks.


by colebiancardi on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:30:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I guess Lincoln was horrible on Civil Rights (2.00 / 1)

because only freed the slaves, but didn't end segregation, or stop Jim Crow laws from happening


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:48:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Please. (1.00 / 0)

Clinton passed DOMA, probably the worst piece of anti-gay bigotry on the statute book, and DADT, making anti-gay discrimination a matter of bipartisan agreement on government policy.

Clinton was better for us than all of his predecessors, absolutely. But that's because all of his predecessors were in the Dark Ages. Better is a relative expression.

But as I see below, that means I'm just ungrateful for the crumbs we did get. Jesus.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:52:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

stop acting as if he was horrible (none / 0)

yes, things are relative. Jimmy Carter, LBJ in the dark ages? Try in the same century, and same half century. Stop whining, gays got the best they were ever gonna get in that period. I doubt Bob Kerrey or Paul Tsongas or Jerry Brown or Ross Pert would have gotten any better for gays in the military. In the future, gays will get more. Clinton paved the way and whining about how he didn't get the stars and moon for gays ignores that he did get a lot more dignity for them than ever before. He appointed more to cabinet that Truman did, who as you point out, desegregated the army for blacks.


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 03:02:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow. (1.00 / 0)

You are so awesome, truly. "Stop whining"?

Hey, gay Hillary supporters! This guy is saying what they really think about you! Read all about it!

Yeah, I'll demand my civil rights whether or not you approve, straight man. And by the way, unless you're regurgitating freeper lies about Janet Reno, Bill never appointed an openly gay cabinet member.

In the future, gays will get more.

All we want is full equality with everyone else. Too much to ask as far as you're concerned?


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:26:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow. (2.00 / 0)

I totally agree that your civil rights should be appointed.   However, based on bigotry and ignorance, it does take time.  Again, look how long it took for African-Americans to achieve equality or women for that matter.

I think there has been great strides taken, and more will happen - more & more people are open to this and in much a quicker time frame than other minority groups have achieved.

hang in there - I wish I was prez, because I would enact it in a heartbeat and damn my future in a political career.  But I doubt I could get elected dogcatcher, let alone president.


by colebiancardi on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 05:01:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We're never (none / 0)

any of us, going to have full equality, not as long as there's a white-male-dominated power structure. But we'll move forward slowly but surely :-)


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 05:18:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Buchanan? (none / 0)

Almost half of Democrats live in fear or awe of the likes of Buchanan. I call them Fraidycrats. And they support Hillary.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:17:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Buchanan? (2.00 / 1)

This isn't true at all. Clinton actually governed the most progressively in the period leading up to the 1994 elections. WIth the exception of NAFTA, he governed on tradition liberal princples. He raised taxes on the wealthy. He pushed for more gun control. He tried to get universal health care. He expanded the role of government via Family Medical leave.


by Mayor McCheese on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:29:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Buchanan? (none / 0)

I think it can be said that Clinton recognized the challenges and problems facing America and the globe but make a world of progress in solving them in eight years.  Hence, George W. Bush.


by Kate Stone on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:03:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill (none / 0)

Obama and Hillary are positioned in exactly the same place.

The difference is, Obama doesn't have to carry the baggage of having supported the worst of Bush.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:15:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill (none / 0)

You can say it over and over but that doesn't make it true.

When Obama needs cred he says Hillary == Obama to try and sponge some off her.

Hillary is the continuation of 1992-2000 with peace and prosperity.

Obama is the continuation of 1976-1980 with inflation and hostages and a general sense of moral superiority in the white house.


by DTaylor on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:55:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

got your dates wrong (none / 0)

Bill Clinton served from 1993-2001, and Carter was 1977-1981. it matters because troops were sent to somalia in 1992, and the first Al Qaeda attack under that name happened that year, and if you get Clinton's dates wrong, haters can blame those two things on Clinton.  

Obama is Jimmy Carter. If he gets elected, and turns out to govern like him, and his presidency is like his, I support Hillary 2012, ala Ted kennedy 1980. unlike Kennedy, she hasn't killed anyone yet, and the head of her machine is still alive, Bill, so she could conceivably take his nomination if Obama turns out to be another Jimmy Carter.


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:15:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

heh! (2.00 / 1)

well, if you see "undecided", tell him the girl kicked his ass. he's probably getting used to it by now.


by campskunk on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:01:02 PM EST

Re: heh! (none / 0)

If you believe Obama got 0 votes in MI, you also believe in Sanata Claus and the tooth fairy.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:06:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: heh! (none / 0)

Well to be accurate, Senator Obama received exactly zero votes in the state. That's a belief, not a fact. I think you meant to argue intent of voters.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:08:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

popular votes, or delgates? (2.00 / 2)

:)


As of right now, a number of MI delegates, perhaps 30%, are headed Obama's way.


His popular vote count? Zero. Rules, you know. He pulled himself off the ballot.

But the popular vote count doesn't matter, so don't fret over it.

by Pacific John on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:10:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: heh! (none / 0)

He did get zero votes. Can you point to one vote officially recorded for Obama in Michigan?


by Mayor McCheese on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:30:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: heh! (none / 0)

I'm sure at least one person wrote him in.


by Capt America on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:07:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: heh! (none / 0)

So why is there no evidence of this?


by Mayor McCheese on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 03:48:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: heh! (none / 0)

Because reporting popular vote totals in the low double digits is pretty silly?  Especially when popular vote isn't the metric that's being used to determine the nomination?


by Capt America on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 05:55:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh. I was hoping this was about McCrazy;( (2.00 / 0)


John McCain on social security.
by heresjohnny on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:02:49 PM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill Clinton (2.00 / 0)

Polls show that most agree with the diarist that Hillary (the Clintons) will say and do anything to further their own political interests.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:04:52 PM EST

Re: Obama Ain't A Saint (2.00 / 5)

Polls show that most agree with the diarist that ANY POLITICAN, including Obama, will say and do anything to further their own political interests.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:08:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Ain't A Saint (2.00 / 0)

I was talking about real polling.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:25:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Ain't A Saint (none / 0)

I was talking about REAL LIFE.


I'm United Methodist. I already have a Messiah.
by KnowVox on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:36:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Ain't A Saint (none / 0)

How can you talk about real life when you live on fantasy island?


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 06:02:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill Clinton (2.00 / 1)

Polls also show the majority of the country doesn't believe in evolution.

Polls also show that most American's can't place Iraq on a map.

Polls also show that most Americans cannot name Mexico's president.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:09:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill Clinton (none / 0)

It's Clinton and her minions who keep touting various polling as reasons why Obama can't win. I would suggest being considered to be a bald faced liar, as Hillary is by a solid majority, is the strongest argument for her unelectability.


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:27:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill Clinton (none / 0)

Show me a single poll where a solid majority says "Hillary is a liar."


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:39:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sure. (none / 0)

Taken this month, via The Washington Post:

PHILADELPHIA, April 15 -- Lost in the Hillary Rodham Clinton campaign's aggressive attacks on Barack Obama in recent days is a deep and enduring problem that threatens to undercut any inroads Clinton has made in her struggle to overtake him in the Democratic presidential race: She has lost trust among voters, a majority of whom now view her as dishonest.[...]

Clinton is viewed as "honest and trustworthy" by just 39 percent of Americans, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll, compared with 52 percent in May 2006. Nearly six in 10 said in the new poll that she is not honest and trustworthy. And now, compared with Obama, Clinton has a deep trust deficit among Democrats, trailing him by 23 points as the more honest, an area on which she once led both Obama and John Edwards.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:45:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill Clinton (none / 0)

The above poll nowhere posits that "Hillary is a liar."


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:49:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill Clinton (1.00 / 1)

What do you call someone, such as Hillary, who can't be trusted? A truther?


The choice is simple: A President who voted for the worst of Bush's odius agenda, or one who didn't.
by Liberal Avenger on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:10:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The poll question (none / 0)

was as follows (raw data here):

29. Please tell me if the following statements apply to Hillary Clinton or not: She is honest and trustworthy.

         Yes   No   No opinion    
4/13/08   39    58        3
5/15/06   52    42        6

Sure, that's semantically different from "Do you agree or disagree that Hillary Clinton is a liar?".

But it's a difference merely of wording, not of outcome or meaning. Unless there's a huge distinction between 'not honest and trustworthy' and 'liar' that I'm unaware of.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:14:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The poll question (none / 0)

Yes, there's a huge difference which you're apparently unaware of: The question is not "Is Hillary a liar." And since you could not read/interpret my question correctly, there's really nothing else to add to this.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 05:00:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill Clinton (2.00 / 4)

well, maybe if progressives stood up for Clinton during the witchhunt (like they do now for Obama's slight on ABC's debates), BC could have done more.

Americans didn't pay attention and didn't get upset.  

But in the end, they sided with BC, based on his approval ratings.  During his impeachment, the man got 60+% approval ratings and now you want to shit over his legacy?

If the diary represents the majority of obama supporters viewpoints, no wonder I have utter contempt for them.


by colebiancardi on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:07:22 PM EST

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill Clinton (2.00 / 1)

I certainly stood up for him during the witch hunts, passionately.  MoveOn was created in response to the impeachment issue.  If anything I think the witch hunts created a lot more support for him in the progressive community.  Heck, when did the liberals even oppose his policies... When he was dismantling LBJ's war on poverty and declaring the era of big govt over, who said anything?  If Reagan tried this, people like Jesse Jackson would be marching in the street.  Nothing.  During the impeachment scandal all members of the party rallied around him.

I fight for the direction of the party in the primaries, once the path is selected I stand by our standard bearer.


by labor nrrd on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:46:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill Clinton (none / 0)

Actually many liberals -- some within his own administration -- were furious about his capitualization to Republicans on changing welfare rules.  He proposed one thing, the Republicans proposed draconian rules and he went with them.  Two the architects of "ending welfare as we knew it" -- academics from Harvard who had written the policy for Clinton, walked out on him.


by Kate Stone on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:23:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Bill Clinton (none / 0)

He dropped his first choice for AG because the Republicans didn't like her.  He totally alienated the folks at the Children's Defense Fund for buying into draconian Republican policies re: welfare.

Get with the program, folks.  Bill Clinton was a conservative to moderate president.  His "progressivness" was the intellectual understanding of a changing America and world.  Show me what is left of that legacy outside of we all want someone in the WH with a brain?


by Kate Stone on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:26:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ironic. (none / 0)

maybe if progressives stood up for Clinton during the witchhunt

MoveOn.org, that organization that Hillary trashed the other day, began as a petition by two Progressive activists for the country to Move On from impeachment by holding a censure vote. Hence the name.

Conservative Democrats like Lieberman were excoriating him at the time.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:48:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ironic. (none / 0)

no duh about moveOn.org - I am one of their charter members (or was, as I have left them now)

but how many people was that?  What type of voice was heard back then?  When news stations only reported on the ML problem, where was your outrage?  Where was the editorials, the ban to stop watching news (I actually turned off TV news for 2 years), the marches, the protests?

nothing.  nada.  

Poor Obama gets a couple of tough and maybe out-of-line questions, and tens of thousands of comments and complaints are blogged.

go figure.


by colebiancardi on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 01:52:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"where was your outrage?" (none / 0)

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that you knew me back then. In fact, I signed their petition on the third day it was out. I also attended several rallies here in New York City, put a sign in my window, and guess what?

I was by no means alone.

Maybe the problem here is that you, dear colebiancardi, have a problem with making snap, ill-informed blanket statements about entire groups of people.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:03:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "where was your outrage?" (none / 0)

no, dear MBNYC, I am not making snap or ill-informed blanket statements on entire groups of people.  I am stating that the witch hunt began years before moveOn.org was even created.

There was no mass protests, no mass bans, no mass nothing.

I lived thru it as well and if you (not the literal you, but the mass you) are going to try and repaint the past with some fictional fairytale about how the masses came out to defend BC and ALSO shit on the BC's legacy, I've have some bridges in Alaska to sell you.


by colebiancardi on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:11:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "where was your outrage?" (none / 0)

I'm not sure what exactly you're getting at. That there wasn't a mass protest movement over Whitewater, maybe?

That's actually, if you take a step back from pretending that everything Clinton ever did was awesome and that he pooped rainbows, an intriguing thought experiment. When Bill left office, the Democratic Party was pretty much a shambles institutionally and organizationally. There was no Congressional majority, no small donor base, a complete reliance on big money donors, no state-level infrastructure, zilch.

Bill could have used the anger over what the Rs were doing to him and to us, the larger us, in a constructive way to build the party. That would have helped him, too. But that would also have meant going back to the grassroots, and as we've seen time and again, most recently in her campaign, that's just not something either Clinton is comfortable with - too much loss of control.

The party today is the picture of health. We beat the other side whenever there's a contest. We have money, they don't, we own the issues agenda, we have vibrant state parties everywhere, own the internet, have huge turnout, you name it, we rule it. And it's all because of the huge amount of work people like me, those committed party activists, have done for years.

If the Clintons get back in, I think they'll actively work to destroy all of that. That's the main reason I oppose her, in fact.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 02:43:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "where was your outrage?" (none / 0)

yes, OUR party is the picture of health, and that PARTY also includes the Clintons.

don't get so cocky - you might even believe some of the BS you are swilling here.


by colebiancardi on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 03:05:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sure the party (none / 0)

includes the Clintons. It would be poorer if it did not.

But that doesn't change the fact that their approach to politics hurt the party, and that we'd be better served by not bringing it back. You can argue that Hillary is better than Obama on policy, and on some issues, you'd have a very valid point.

But if you want to argue that the Clinton approach to politics is better than Obama's, you'd have to accept a quick refutation, just based on how their campaigns are performing. Her campaign is the best demonstration of why she can't be put in charge of the national party. Two words: Mark Penn.

As DNC Chair.


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 03:54:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hurt the party? (none / 0)

so after losing 5/6 elections in landslides, and finally winning 2 is hurting the party? Bringing our electoral college average up from 113 from 1968-1988 to 260 from 2000-2004 is hurting the party? No longer being the party of welfare and softness on crime is hurting the party? you make no sense. I guess losing like Mondale did, winning only one state is helping the party then, as is McGovern's one state.


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:23:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You see... (1.00 / 0)

...that's part of the problem with the Clinton people: they only look at the White House. George McGovern didn't lose Congress. Mondale and Dukakis didn't, either.

Bill Clinton did.

No longer being the party of welfare and softness on crime is hurting the party?

Okay, in conjunction with your remarks that gays need to "stop whining", you sound like a freeper. Are you a Democrat?


"This election is not about ideology, it's about competence." -Michael Dukakis
by MBNYC on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:30:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

if you can't get the White House, (2.00 / 1)

what the hell good is Congress? Did Congress stop Reagan from his misdeeds? Did they stop him from sloping the tax code into the completely opposite direction, or his tax "reform" act where he cut them for the rich and raised them on the poor? Congress doesn't matter, if you can't elect a President. The Pelosi Congress hasn't done jack for the American people, in fact, they give Bush everything he wants. I'd rather a Dem President and a GOP congress than a GOP President and a Dem Congress.

Bill Clinton didn't lose Congress, Congress lost Congress. The people were fed up with the house banking, the post office scandal, the keating five (of which McCain was the only Republican), they didn't reform health care, and what about the media treatment of the Clintons? Remember the media covering the Whitewater non-scandal? Or Vince Foster? THOSE are why we lost Congress. The same Congress, the 103rd Congress actually fed into Whitewater, calling for an investigation, instead of standing by Clinton. With the portrayal of Clinton in the media, and the scandals, of course the GOP was gonna win back Congress.

Also, you are praising McGovern, Dukakis, and Mondale because they didn't lose Congress? They never won the Presidency, so of course they lost Congress. But Mondale's Vice Presidency meaning Carter's Presidency did give us Reagan's Presidency. Not to mention, Bill Clinton did a lot more for the American people than George McGovern, Walter Mondale, and Michael Dukakis. If the triumvirate of losers had won, what makes you think they would have kept Congress?


"there is nothing wrong with America that cannot be cured by what is right in America"-William Jefferson Clinton, forty-second President of the United States
by DiamondJay on Thu Apr 24, 2008 at 04:45:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Really (none / 0)

if you don't understand, quote, "what the hell good is Congress", talking to you is not a worthwhile time investment. If you want to understand what Congress is good for, compare what Reagan was able to do with what Bush got done.

Whitewater was investigated by a special counsel appointed by Super-Bill's own DoJ, by the way.

As to losing Congress in 1994, some Democratic leaders were talking about asking Clinton not to