Obama Walks The Line

Today, by a vote of 293-129, congress passed the ridiculous FISA Amendment Act of 2008, which not only sanctions warrantless wiretapping, but also grants retroactive immunity to the telecom companies that were complicit in Bush's illegal spying program. In his statement, Barack Obama expressed a tepid support for the former and pledged to fight the latter in the senate.

"Given the grave threats that we face, our national security agencies must have the capability to gather intelligence and track down terrorists before they strike, while respecting the rule of law and the privacy and civil liberties of the American people. There is also little doubt that the Bush Administration, with the cooperation of major telecommunications companies, has abused that authority and undermined the Constitution by intercepting the communications of innocent Americans without their knowledge or the required court orders.

"That is why last year I opposed the so-called Protect America Act, which expanded the surveillance powers of the government without sufficient independent oversight to protect the privacy and civil liberties of innocent Americans. I have also opposed the granting of retroactive immunity to those who were allegedly complicit in acts of illegal spying in the past.

"After months of negotiation, the House today passed a compromise that, while far from perfect, is a marked improvement over last year's Protect America Act.

"Under this compromise legislation, an important tool in the fight against terrorism will continue, but the President's illegal program of warrantless surveillance will be over. It restores FISA and existing criminal wiretap statutes as the exclusive means to conduct surveillance - making it clear that the President cannot circumvent the law and disregard the civil liberties of the American people. It also firmly re-establishes basic judicial oversight over all domestic surveillance in the future. It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses. But this compromise guarantees a thorough review by the Inspectors General of our national security agencies to determine what took place in the past, and ensures that there will be accountability going forward. By demanding oversight and accountability, a grassroots movement of Americans has helped yield a bill that is far better than the Protect America Act.

"It is not all that I would want. But given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay. So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as President, I will carefully monitor the program, review the report by the Inspectors General, and work with the Congress to take any additional steps I deem necessary to protect the lives - and the liberty - of the American people."

I'm told the senate will be taking this up on Thursday.

Color me not all that surprised that Barack Obama, so far, is punting on this issue. He's never really proven himself among the bolder, more progressive senators, which is one of the reasons I was actually sort of stunned by the near monolithic shift toward him among the progressive blogosphere once John Edwards dropped out. But now he has an opportunity, not only as a senator, but as the putative head of the Democratic Party, to block retroactive telecom immunity as he has pledged to do.

We've all been told over and over for the last year that Barack Obama is the change we've been waiting for and has a unique ability to reach across the aisle and forge consensus. OK, Senator, now's the time to demonstrate that ability.

Senator Obama himself has told us many times that this is not about him, that change comes through building a movement and this is about us, coming together to make the change we want. Well, the movement is here waiting to back you, Senator.

We've done our part, now you do yours.



Display:


We've done our part, now you do yours. (2.00 / 7)

Don't hold your breath Todd.


by MediaFreeze on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 06:30:12 PM EST

I'm just glad that he didn't vote present (2.00 / 8)

Obama: "I will not be running for president in 2008, I just got in the senate"

Obama: "I will not opt out of public financing"

Obama supporters: "He's not like other politicians, he rejects the old style politics"

Me: "Whatever"


by mmorang on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 06:33:57 PM EST

Re: I'm just glad that he didn't vote present (none / 0)

My God, he changed his mind--twice! And on such important issues...


by dogooder on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:09:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 6)

Obama is not going to walk the walk.  Remember, this is the guy who had Joe Lieberman as a mentor, and who Tom Daschle took under his wing.  

After his ad yesterday backing that Blue "Bush Dog" Democrat in the Election against the Progressive candidate, it is becoming clearer and clearer the kind of change that Barack stands for:  Centrist, Compromise-ridden, DLC-type special-interest balancing, not Progressive agenda.

PLEASE tell me again why we're sending this man and his people to the White House?

As Greenwald wrote today, this FISA bill is a repugnant, odious compromise foisted on Dems by Steny Hoyer, and will do nothing towards either accountability or reform.

Bad job, Obama.  

No wonder you've been named Atrios Wanker of the DAy.


by dembluestates on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 06:39:11 PM EST

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 2)

Problem is ... Clinton would have released a statement saying the exact same thing as Obama


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 06:47:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

What is Clinton's FISA stance? I wonder whether the gnashing of teeth will be the same if she agrees.

I've never agreed with Obama on everything; this is one of the bigger disagreements I have with him.

No candidate is perfect; there are a lot of house members I've supported who are on the wrong side of this too.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:25:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What does it matter? (none / 0)

First, yes. There would be teeth gnashing if Hillary Clinton, acting as the presumptive nominee, did what Obama just did on this POS legislation. But what does it matter? Hillary Clinton is not the presumptive nominee, she's not my senator and she isn't the one who is supposed to be leading the party.

My ire is not reserved for Obama. There is plenty or ire to go around. Reid, Pelosi, Hoyer and all the rest get their share. And yes, Clinton too if she supports this...crap.

I want Democrats to act like Democrats. At the top of the list ought to be protecting the fundamental freedoms that the Bill of Rights was designed to keep being eviscerated by "well meaning" government.

Maybe Obama would use the powers in this bill wisely. But what about the president after that, and the president after that?

The onus here is on the leader. Obama is supposed to be the leader now. Clinton's stance is not the point.

by Romberry on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 07:31:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (1.75 / 4)

Hillary Clinton supported the original Senate FISA bill, which granted retroactive immunity to telecoms.  She is presumably going to support this one, since it's not as draconian.


by GenaMeana on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:35:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

Hillary did not vote on the original FISA bill, but she issued a statement indicating that she would have voted to oppose the final measure.


by Demogrunt on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:41:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

First read Matt Stoller at

http://openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId =3433

Then look at "Hillary Clinton Statement on Fisa" at

http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/28/hillar y-clinton-statement-on-fisa/

Not that it matters anymore since unfortunately IMHO Barack is the nominee and not Hillary.


by weltec2 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 05:16:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How do you know what Clinton would have done? (2.00 / 3)

Is this "Clinton would have done it too" some sort of talking point from the Obama campaign? It sure as heck is showing up all over the blogosphere. But ya know what? What Clinton would or would not have done isn't the point. In fact, it's simply irrelevant.

What is relevant is this: FISA wasn't broken. Obama has a chance to lead and he's punting by basically grasping onto the shingle that Bush put out which says "Trust me. The intentions are good."

We're supposed to be a nation of laws. This is a bad law. It essentially grants telecoms immunity for breaking the law that was (and is) on the books and renders the idea of private communications among Americans obsolete. All that is required to stop any court from looking at any suits brought is for the AG to say "we thought it might be necessary to stop terrorism." They don't have to mean it, they just have to say it.

Quit excusing badness by telling me someone else would have done it too. I'm not a HRC supporter and if she had done it, I'd be just as upset.

Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.


by Romberry on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:42:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (1.33 / 3)

Really?

Even for an Obamacan this is wankery at it's most abject and purile.

How about we let 'the little lady...' speak for herself pal. That's only polite...or didn't you know?


by Pericles on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 11:28:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

Where is her statement on this matter?  Is she going to help Feingold filibuster this?


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:48:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 3)

She's not a little lady, and she already did speak for herself.  Sorry to disappoint.


by GenaMeana on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:36:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 2)

PLEASE tell me again why we're sending this man and his people to the White House?

Because the only candidate to show leadership on this issue never got to five per cent support in the primaries?


by BlueinColorado on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 06:51:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 7)

I'm waiting for the disillusionment to set in when folks finally figure out that the New Politics is pretty much the same as the Old Politics with a good marketing campaign behind it.


by InigoMontoya on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 06:43:13 PM EST

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

All because of a single issue? I think that's a bit on the irrational side. After all, who thinks it's fair to judge a candidate based on a single issue...you know, like voting to support the war in Iraq.

Then again, who said anyone had to be rational?


by Covin on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:06:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 3)

People who have already come to this conclusion have not done so over a single issue. This just happens to be yet another issue that reminds us about why we came to this conclusion.


by LakersFan on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:26:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 1)

Single issue?  I'll wake you when it reaches issue #43.


by InigoMontoya on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 09:07:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Single issue? (none / 0)

One of the most important issue -  belittling it is not an excuse - welcome to politics - now you know why us old timers warned y'all about what was to come and you just threw us to the curb - welcome kids, you are now witnessing what we have for the past 40 yrs and didn't fall for the flowerey words - I'm just so glad that I didn't vote for him and changed my party affiliation. This party deserves him and all of you!


by suzieg on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:38:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Single issue? (2.00 / 3)

You don't even know what Hillary Clinton's position on this is.  


by GenaMeana on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:51:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He's a politician, period. (2.00 / 5)

Anyone who was expecting the Second Coming needs to wake up now.  In the end- he's better than McCain.  That's really the only only thing we can be sure of.  I've always thought he was to the Right of both Edwards and Clinton.  Sketch on gay issues, sketchiy on religious issues- bad signs to me. Time will tell.


by easyE on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 06:46:04 PM EST

sorry for the typeos (none / 0)

I didn't preview!  


by easyE on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 06:47:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He's a politician, period. (2.00 / 2)

The Iraqi foreign minister didn't so.  He said that after talking to Obama that he wasn't that different from McCain, at least in regards to their Iraq policy.

Obama '08 is like Clinton '92, totally on top of his game.  It is amazing the way he can parse a phrase so that people hear what they want.

Sorry for you guys that were expecting Obama to be a less political animal but he has just begun to pivot.


by dMarx on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:20:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He's a politician, period. (2.00 / 3)

No kidding.

I hate to remind you, but "obama messiah" is a parody site.  It's not something that was created by his voters.


by GenaMeana on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:51:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He's a politician, period. (none / 0)

clearly, but there are those that weep at his ralies and refer to him as  "the one."  His wife says he can heal America's "broken soul." And that ain't no parody.

As a politician, and I liked Bill Clinton, Obama is pretty deft.


by dMarx on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 08:55:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

Hasn't the Senate already passed a version including immunity wording in the past?  If so, this does not bode well.


by semiquaver on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 06:48:34 PM EST

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

Yes, it has. The House killed it and it was dead until Steny Hoyer and Nancy Pelosi resurrected it.

Nancy Pelosi is certainly nothing like MY Sicilian grandmother. She would have eaten Bush up and spit him out.


by antiHyde on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:23:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

cindyforcongress.org (none / 0)

Help cindy sheehan dethrone her - contribute to her campaign against Nancy. Would be hard, but at least she would have to fight for her seat.
The woman is repugnant - has caved in on everything that Mr. 29% lame duck president asked -I'm so ashamed of ever having called myself a proud democrat -
by suzieg on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:43:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

Interesting.

Can someone point out for me where Obama claimed he would champion every demand of the progressive blogosphere?

And when you are done, could you then show me where he claimed to champion the demands of DLC?

As a ardent supporter of Obama, from his days as a State Senator here in Chicago, I'd like to know from this blog where I can find the evidence to the charges made in this post.

Thank you.


by ChangeMatters on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 06:49:41 PM EST

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

Exactly what I've been saying for so long. He is no liberal champion like edwards or feingold or kennedy, nor did he ever claim to be one, the left blogs needn't have gone gaga over him. But here we are...


by devil on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:33:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 4)

Can someone point out for me where Obama claimed he would champion every demand of the progressive blogosphere?

That's a very bad argument. We aren't asking him to bake us a cake or come by and mow the lawn.  Our constitutional rights are important to some of us - it isn't some unreasonable demand that the constitution be respected. He's wrong on this, and there's no way around that.  If Clinton agrees, then she's wrong too.

You're trying to make it sound like we're making some wildly unreasonable demands on him, and that just ain't the case. This is important.

Obama had a chance to show real leadership here, and he abstained.


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:22:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (1.75 / 4)

You're correct, and I'm disappointed.

As a reasonable Clintonista for Obama, will you keep your trolls in check?  I'm losing my temper.


by GenaMeana on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:40:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

More 'bolder, progressive senators" (none / 0)

Really?

I am hard pressed to find such effective Senator's given the last 7 years.

And by effective, I mean successful progressive legislation that was passed in the Senate, then the House, and then signed by George.

Who are these progressive Senators's you speak of, and why are their 'bold' acts not a part of the U.S. Code?


by ChangeMatters on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 06:54:26 PM EST

Re: More 'bolder, progressive senators" (2.00 / 2)

A bold act is standing up for the right thing, even when the chips are down.  I'll point you toward Russ Feingold as the prime example.


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:24:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He campaigned against all of the Clintons' (2.00 / 1)

centrist administration successes - he ran hard left to Hillary - he bemoaned her as a centrist at every turn by his examples that he was always against NAFTA, against the war, for campaign financing, against FISA, etc, etc, etc, - where have you been for the past 18 months?


by suzieg on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:47:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama the empty signifier (none / 0)

According to today's Huffington Post Obama supports the F.I.S.A. bill giving immunity to telecoms.

Patrick Murphy voted for  and supports the MCA too.
Joe Sestak voted for it.

http://brendancalling.com/


by jd2 on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 06:59:50 PM EST

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 3)

A couple of things:

First, Obama probably deserves to catch a little hell on this. But, I feel like we're ignoring some realities at the same time.

Were Obama to take up this fight wholeheartedly, there might very well be political consequences. I haven't seen polling, but I imagine that the average voter doesn't share the outrage over telecom immunity and might very well disagree with what they perceive as obstructing robust efforts to "protect us from the terrorists." I hate that framing as much as anyone, but a lot of general election voters have this mentality.

The fact is that most voters don't get worked up about constitutional rights until theirs are in jeopardy or have been violated. As a result, you just can't rely on politicians (certainly not politicians courting votes in red areas of the country) to fight constitutional battles that relate to national security issues.

Accordingly, federal courts tend to be a more effective source of protection. That is, federal judges who are protected from the political process (i.e., the stupidity of voters) through life-tenure are the only ones who ever show sufficient concern for constitutional rights. To be sure, constitutional rights essentially serve an anti-majoritarian function--they protect citizens from the abuses of a representative government--so it's not surprising that unelected judges are left to do the work. If we could expect the electorate to hold public officials accountable for such abuses, then there would be no need for constitutional constraints. But, alas, that's nowhere near the case.

So, my principal concern on these matters is electing a president who will appoint good judges.

That said, I don't excuse the cowardly behavior of politicians, including Obama. At the same time, I know exactly why they behave that way--to get elected by knee-jerk voters who don't lose sleep over a president breaking the rules to "protect them from the terrorists."

Secondly, the entire FISA scheme is a joke. We're taling about super-secret court that rubber stamps 99.9% of the warrant requests it receives. Those warrants are not worth very much to begin with, which makes it harder to lament efforts to avoid them.

Thirdly, I think there are bigger issues that some federal agent listening to my phone calls. The "war on drugs" has far more pernicious consequences, but we don't seem to protest that nearly as much. That's just one example, but there are plenty more.


by DPW on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:03:32 PM EST

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

I imagine that the average voter doesn't share the outrage over telecom immunity and might very well disagree with what they perceive as obstructing robust efforts to "protect us from the terrorists." I hate that framing as much as anyone, but a lot of general election voters have this mentality.
But Obama's  involvement will bring this issue into the mainstream discussion like nothing else will. The average voter will then know what's at stake.


by devil on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:36:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

I'm not so confident. I just don't expect that most Americans care about the ability to sue telecom companies for cooperating with the president's surveillance efforts. On the other hand, if Obama votes against the bill, we can expect 527s to run ads saying "Obama voted against a bill that would to enhance the president's ability to identify and prevent terrorsist threats." Those ads won't be kind enough to point out that Obama voted against it due to the telecom immunity provision. All they will know is that Obama didn't vote for a bill designed principally to enhance intelligence gathering abilities.

Trust me. I really wish the public was more attentive and responsive to constitutional problems, but their not.


by DPW on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:56:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

It's also pertinent to remind ourselves that it appears that Obama will indeed become the next POTUS, and as such, he would inherit these enhanced "executive powers" that many of us dislike and wish to be discarded.

I'm sure it's difficult to vote against power you might one day wield yourself.

That said, I think the old "they'll criticize me for it" meme is a bit lame and in the course of 'politics of change' it has no place.  Stand up for it or be honest about why you don't.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:28:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 3)

But wait! I thought he was supposed to be about "Change" and a "New Type of Politics". Now you're saying he can't take a strong stand on an important Constitutional issue because the issue doesn't poll well?

I swear I recall that being too poll-driven and not taking bold positions on issues was what Obama supporters criticized Clinton for. Hold your candidate to the same standards you hold other candidates to, or be prepared to be called a hypocrite.


by LakersFan on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:34:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

First, I clearly state that Obama should take some heat on this.

Second, Obama has said before that the thing he dislikes about the senate is how frequently you're forced to make bad votes, due to many factors primarily to the fact that bills cover so many subjects and, accordingly, involves various kinds of compromise from all senators (incidentally, this is also why many judges ignore so-called "legislative intent" when interpreting statutory law, viz., because congressional bills are the product of such conflicting reasons and motivations). However, an Obama presidency may very well turn out involve less calculation. Of course, we don't know. But, I certain understand the complaint he was making about serving as a congressperson.

And, finally, none of us really thinks that Obama operates without political calculation and opportunism. However, we do find that he's more willing to challenge the stupid frames that tend to drive much of our political thinking. And, I think he's been confirming that in recent exchanges with McCain on foreign policy.

But, no, he's certainly not perfect. And, more importantly, no one is going to be perfect to all people--not even a substantial number of those who tend to share political values. For instance, my ideal politician would advocate for prison reform, animal welfare laws, decriminalization of drugs, and many other issues that poll terribly. However, I'm not going to call Obama a sellout because he doesn't run on vending-machine joints and a kindler, gentler animal farming industry. We all get the fact that winning requires the vote of people who disagree with us. So, I just ask that we keep this fact in mind as we criticize our party's presidential nominee.


by DPW on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 09:07:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 3)

I already know that politics takes compromise and building coaltions, and sometimes even voting for bad legislation. But I'm a Clintonista and I've always believed this and never claimed that there was a "new way" of doing politics or that any particular candidate would bring "change" I would believe in.

It's only the wide-eyed Obama supporters who bought all of the marketing bs that are going to have to come to the harsh realization that all politicians are sell-outs, including their beloved candidate. He's just another politician, selling the same old wares, just with some new slogans.

And I'm sorry, but this statement is pure hilarity:

none of us really thinks that Obama operates without political calculation and opportunism

Because you know that if any Clinton supporter dared to say such a thing, we would be torn to pieces, called trolls, Republicans, and a bunch of other nasty names. As I said, prepare to be called a hypocrite.


by LakersFan on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 09:26:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

Just regarding the last part of your comment, consider the fact that the difference between Obama and Clinton is more a matter of degree than kind. Obama didn't run on a ridiculous gas tax; he didn't support a idiotic war; and, he didn't vote against a ban on cluster bombs.

That said, he did vote "present" a bunch of times and he has played it safe in the senate when it comes to war funding and FISA.

But, if you want to see Obama taking an unpopular stand, consider this vote: http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCommentary.as p?Page=/Commentary/archive/200801/COM200 80109b.html


by DPW on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 09:36:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 1)

I read the link.  He voted "Present" that day.

Some leadership.


by dembluestates on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 10:22:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

The article is a bit confusing, but Obama did vote "no" on the IL version of the Born Alive Infants Act (which evidently did not have the language included in the federal version in order to prevent interpretation inconsistent with Roe v. Wade and its progeny):

That June, the U.S. Senate voted 98-0 in favor of the Born Alive Infants Protection Act (although it failed to become law that year). Pro-abortion Democrats supported it because this language was added: "Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being born alive as defined in this section."

Democratic Sen. Barbara Boxer explained that with this language the "amendment certainly does not attack Roe v. Wade."

On July 18, 2002, Democratic Sen. Harry Reid called for the bill to be approved by unanimous consent. It was.

That same year, the Illinois version of the bill came up again. Obama voted "no."

However, he voted "present" on some other bills mentioned in the article which potentially might have threaten abortion rights.


by DPW on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:47:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Excuse me! We have to give a pass on (2.00 / 1)

major legislation for his political ambitions? He's gotten away with that for far too long! His 130 present votes were enough of a disgrace! Let's not turn a blind eye to this affront of what  a real progressive should stand for!

Obviously constitutional rights mean nothing to you as long as your candidate wins - how very patriotic!!!


by suzieg on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:52:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excuse me! We have to give a pass on (2.00 / 2)

And the converse is that consistutional rights only mean something to you if your candidate loses.  Right Clinton Cultist?


by GenaMeana on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:45:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Meh! (none / 0)

And more meh!


by johnnygunn on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:04:19 PM EST

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 2)

It's very easy to understand the 'monlithic shift' of the progressives towards Obama after Edwards dropped out: it's the old ABH syndrome.  A turtle could have run and gotten this support as long as his name wasn't Clinton, Bill, Hillary or Chelsea.  It's stupefying.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:06:27 PM EST

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 1)

It's called running to the center for the general election.  Bill did it plenty of times. Hillary, being a shrewd politician, would have done it, too.  I'd put $ on it Edwards would have done it, too.

Since we're not running for election, we have the luxury of being able to stick to our convinctions 100% of the time.  So we should absolutely take him to task for this.  But to decry him as a miserable failure of a candidate is laughable.


by GingertheDem on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:15:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 1)

Well I do agree with you in that it's impossible to make everyone happy. I don't think anyone is calling him a failure, but when the expectations have been set as high as they have, disappointment comes easier.


by Dari on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:17:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 3)

No one is calling him a 'miserable failure'.  On the contrary, I plan on voting for him.

I'm just pointing out a rationale for the 'monolithic shift' the diarist couldn't grasp.

Also, it's nice to be able to point to an example of the 'evil triangulation' the Clinton's were always accused of during the primary being put into practice by someone more desired by those who decried it.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:45:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 3)

That cannot be an excuse. Many in the netroots claimed that the AUMF vote was a dealbreaker for them when it came to Clinton. Running to the center was not an acceptable excuse then, it isn't now.

I am still waiting for the liberals to wield some power (by withholding support), like the conservatives are doing to mccain. They are making mccain work (by shifting to the right) for their votes. But the liberal vote is a guaranteed bet for Obama.


by devil on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:45:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

Its easier to do what conservatives are doing to McCain when you've been winning for the last 8 years.

By comparison liberals are hungry for a win and they are going to get behind the person who can give it to them- even if he is not as liberal as we might wish.


I read the body count out of the paper; now it's written all over my face.
by JDF on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 09:31:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry but Hillary did not run her campaign on (2.00 / 1)

the mantra of a candidacy of change. She did not portray herself as a "new" type of politician who would be truthful. We knew who she was, we knew what she would stand for unlike you who decided to throw your hat in for a "new" unknown candidate and this is the result you get!Unfortunately, we will all have to pay the price for your flip-flopper!


by suzieg on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:55:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry but Hillary did not run her campaign on (2.00 / 2)

FOR LIKE THE TENTH TIME, SHE SUPPORTED TELECOM IMMUNITY.

WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?


by GenaMeana on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:46:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

GenaMeana do your homework (none / 0)

First read Matt Stoller at

http://openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId =3433

Then look at "Hillary Clinton Statement on Fisa" at

http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/28/hillar y-clinton-statement-on-fisa/

Then stop nattering at Hillary. Unfortunately IMHO Barack is the nominee and not Hillary. We will have to vote for Obama but we don't have to do it blindly or mutely.


by weltec2 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 05:38:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

If the turtle was well-spoken, even-tempered, ran a tight campaign, and was outspoken against the war from the beginning, then, yes, that turtle might just beat Clinton and McCain.


by mikeinsf on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:17:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 4)

Obama on the war

2002: Against the War

2004: Same as the President

2006: Against the war

2008: Nothing "precipitous"

True, he has always maintained the war was a bad idea but on how to proceed he has been all over the map and I am not even sure where he is now. Maybe he likes it that way so that people can believe what they want.


by dMarx on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:25:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

Oh, yeah... that famous out-of-context quote from 2004.


by mikeinsf on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:31:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

Perhaps you can provide the full context?


by dMarx on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 08:56:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Media Matters: (none / 0)

"Kurtz misrepresented Obama's 2004 remark on Iraq war stance

   Summary: On Reliable Sources, Howard Kurtz claimed that in a 2004 Chicago Tribune article, Sen. Barack Obama "said there wasn't much difference between his position and George Bush's position on the [Iraq] war." But Kurtz left out three key words from Obama's quote in the Tribune -- "at this stage" -- as well as the context of the remarks, both of which indicate that Obama was discussing how best to stabilize Iraq from mid-2004 onward, not claiming agreement with Bush on the war itself."


by mikeinsf on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 06:47:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

Wow. How did this become about Hillary? How does everything become about Hillary?

Clinton was king of the centrist, anti-progressive BS... Welfare Reform My Ass (Let's all join WRAS! It's a kind of fish!)

Seriously, if you think Obama's support of this some kind of Hillary rallying cry, let's remember some of her votes that were about as anti-us as could be, Iraq war vote, Iran war vote...


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:28:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

She's a stahr, dahling.


by mikeinsf on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:31:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 2)

She's a goddess.

Positions are for the little people.


by GenaMeana on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:47:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 2)

Clinton was king of the centrist, anti-progressive BS... Welfare Reform My Ass (Let's all join WRAS! It's a kind of fish!)

Now Obama risks becoming that (king of centrist), unless he shows real leadership on some issue. FISA is a good one to show his leadership.


by devil on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:47:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

I like his standing strong on offshore drilling. Hope he does the same with FISA.


by devil on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:49:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 1)

I think it's a safe bet that Obama, not being the physical embodiment of my own personal preferences on all issues, will let me down on many occaisions. I'm not so naive to expect anything different.

But after 8 years, I'm plenty happy to be disappointed, rather than constantly appalled.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:26:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I blame Tony Blair for her vote! (none / 0)

Everyone seems to forget that every time credible objections to the war were brought up, Tony Blair was flown in to make the case - How many times did he come over if not close to 4 to sell the war! The american people fell for it because they had no reason not to believe him - I put the full blame on him!


by suzieg on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 06:01:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I blame Tony Blair for her vote! (none / 0)

I put the full blame on Bush.  Folks forget that this bill was not a declaration of war, but rather an authorization for the POTUS to have the ability to make the decision to use military force if necessary.  Those who constantly whine about the issue would also whine if the same authority were asked for by a POTUS Obama and denied him by Congress.  It's that simple.


Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?
by emsprater on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:49:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I blame Tony Blair for her vote! (2.00 / 2)

Lol!


by GenaMeana on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 03:44:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 1)

Todd,

Congress did not pass FISA, the House did which is only 1/2 of Congress. If Congress had passed it, we'd be talking abour how fast ol' W had signed it.

The Senate will stall it, not vote on it and then go on their summer break, effectively killing the bill until the next session.

By then it will be too close to the GE for anyone in either the House or Senate on our side of the isle to touch it with a ten foot pole.


by gatorres69 on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:20:33 PM EST

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

They passed it last time.


by antiHyde on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:24:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No they won't... (none / 0)

They will pass it in record time now...


by MediaFreeze on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:30:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I wish I wish I wish (none / 0)

this were true. But I fear this is apple pie.


by weltec2 on Sun Jun 22, 2008 at 05:45:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 1)

okay lets get real. this bill was shit before. FISA is shit. now we are dressing it up. we are putting lipstick on a pig here. this is the best the bill is gonna get...


"Rankles and Rush Limbaugh, ruining the chaos brand since 2008."
by alyssa chaos on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:26:19 PM EST

Shades of more to come... (2.00 / 6)

In a new interview with National Journal magazine, an intelligence adviser to Barack Obama's presidential campaign broke with his candidate's position opposing retroactive legal protection for telecommunications companies being sued for cooperating with a dubious U.S. government domestic surveillance program.

"I do believe strongly that [telecoms] should be granted that immunity," former CIA official John Brennan told National Journal reporter Shane Harris in the interview.  "They were told to [cooperate] by the appropriate authorities that were operating in a legal context."

"I know people are concerned about that, but I do believe that's the right thing to do," added Brennan, who is an intelligence and foreign policy adviser to Obama.

Intel Adviser Breaks with Obama over FISA, Telecoms

So carefully orchestrated... You gotta admire them...

Obama's advisers are very much NOT the progressives that his supporters imagine they are. Remember Samantha Power (we will probably see her on the scene again soon), and NAFTAgate. She thinks the use of the US Military adventuring around the world is a great idea.

Any buyer's remorse setting in yet?


by MediaFreeze on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:29:00 PM EST

Re: Shades of more to come... (none / 0)

No, I'll wait 'till the Senate works on it before I pass any judgment.  But thanks for bringing up spooky innuendo, it makes me nerbuss


Democrat for the democratic nominee
by KLRinLA on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:36:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Shades of more to come... (none / 0)

I get a kick out of comments like your's that seem to imply a dissenting voice from one of Obama's advisors means something bad. Obama has stated numerous times that he will not surround himself with yes-men (or -women). Why are you surprised when  someone from his camp disagrees with him about something?

Now I can understand that concern if you are someone who parses every little thing about Obama looking for something to complain about. You aren't someone who would do that, are you?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:38:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

Seriously funny how this is a "told you so" moment for Hillary supporters.

She's supported more than a few measures that have been at odds with the progressive blogosphere. I can think of a few ones that involve nations beginning with "Ira."

In the end, her support for Kyl-Lieberman wasn't enough to turn folks here off, I can't imagine Obama's support for FISA-FAIL will do the same.

Still, weak lame bill.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:30:16 PM EST

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 4)

Still, you have to admit how the absence of the vicious troll rating Obama partisans is quite interesting today...


by MediaFreeze on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:33:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 1)

Must be their day off.


by soyousay on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:39:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

I'd TR you (and soyousay) but the truth is I am too lazy to do it. Instead I'll just smile and think about how us "vicious Obama Partisans" won.  


I read the body count out of the paper; now it's written all over my face.
by JDF on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 09:36:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 1)

I'd TR YOU, but it's almost delicious watching some of you Obama supporters pulling up and saying "Hey, wait a minute...I didn't count on THIS.."

I got a bad feeling about what we're in for.

Obama TAUGHT the Constitution at Chicago Law; there can be no clearer issue for him to show leadership and the kind of Administration he will run.

I am underwhelmed by his careful, painstakingly worded response today, and beginning to get somewhat alarmed.

Where is the passion?  Where is the leadership?  Where is the instinct to do the right thing, to show a backbone, to show the values and conscience worthy of a Constitutional Law Professor?  When he talked about the whispers of freedom and "Yes, we can!" in the slave camps, did someone just write that for him to deliver?

I demand Barack feel about the Constitution the way I do: I would crawl through broken glass to defend my and your Bill of Rights.  It's all we got.


by dembluestates on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 10:38:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

Anyone who lived through the Clinton 90s knows you're never gonna get all you want from a politician.

Obama's just one of a large number of Democrats I'm disappointed in today. But you're kind of talking silly here if you think

A) Constitutional Law professors agree on FISA Law as "bad"
B) Obama will always do what bloggers want him to.

By your "delicious" comment, I'm going to assume you were for Clinton, maybe? If so, she's not likely going to join you in the broken glass either. If anything, she's more centrist than Obama, what with the DLC connections...

I think there's some projecting going on.


Fight the Smears!
by Lettuce on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:21:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

I defy you to find me ONE COnstitutional Law Professor who does not think the FISA statutes, as they were amended in the last POS that passed thru the Congress, and as they are in actual use TODAY are not a clear and present danger to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

OK, I am exempting Constitutional Law "Professors" at the Bush Justice Department's favorite Regent University, all right?  Let's change that to one "serious" Constitutional Law Professor.


by dembluestates on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 12:27:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

The "vicious troll rating Obama partisans" generally don't TR actual criticism of their candidate, no matter how much the PUMAs want to present it as such. They generally TR actual troll-posts.

But if you want a TR just make a few posts about "Kool-aid", or about "Obamatons". That'll assure you some well-earned TRs or even HRs by me.

This thread bashed Obama for an actual position he took, not for a strawman the trolls put in his mouth. As such I didn't find much of anything to TR here.


by Aris Katsaris on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 05:32:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We knew what to expect with her, we didn't with (1.00 / 3)

Obama - it was all trust - once you lose it, it's gone forever - couldn't happen to a nicer liar!


by suzieg on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 06:04:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

UPDATE CONGRESS DIDN'T PASS SHIT (none / 0)

Thanks


Democrat for the democratic nominee
by KLRinLA on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:34:17 PM EST

Stephen Kinzer remarked in a C-Span (2.00 / 1)

televised speech on June 9th, 2008 that Senator Obama is a blank slate and if he wants to get elected he'll leave it blank. Kinzer's thought was that we are projecting our own needs, wants and expectations on him as he has a blank slate.. Interesting observation by Kinzer.

Obama's earlier speech AIPAC seems to have disppointed some of his ardent left supporters.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008 06/09/9501

While I'm disappointed by his current take on FISA, I was more heartened as his AIPAC speech.


by louisprandtl on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 07:39:26 PM EST

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 2)

I'll need to see where all this goes before casting judgements.  FISA in an awful artifact of the anti-privacy Bush agenda of the past nearly eight years.  It has entangled - as have most every similar activity of the administration - the paranoid and invasive intent of the administration with the tools necessary to address real concerns.

It's going to take some time and effort to deconstruct this whole mess without in fact doing the kinds of things that will put us at greater risk.  Have no doubt, lots of people for lots of reasons want to do us great harm, early and often.

The general tone of Sen. Obama's statement feels promising - we need to address the real threats but so much of what we are doing in the name of security is unacceptable.  Anyone who puts forth simple statements on either side makes me much more nervous than a statement like this one.

As someone with a personal interest in all this stuff (the last company I started focuses on critical infrastructure cyber security, for example) I will follow this as it continues to develop.  "Walking the line" is an apt description, indeed.

-chris


"Because after an eight-year hiatus it is vital to have a president who leads the country instead of lassoing, roping and branding it." Shaun Appleby
by chrisblask on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:16:31 PM EST

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 1)

Interesting comment from author John Dean just now:

I spent most of today reading this bill.  This is a very poorly drafted bill.  I am not at all clear that it does not leave open the possibility of charging the Telecoms with criminal liability.

That might be the kind of thing that would give me some peace with this toilet paper.  Pass the thing if needed, then let the Telecoms know that they remain unsafe in acting against common sense and the common good.

We'll see...

-chris


"Because after an eight-year hiatus it is vital to have a president who leads the country instead of lassoing, roping and branding it." Shaun Appleby
by chrisblask on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 08:26:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

Maybe Obama just doesn't want to give up the power he will accrue from the passage of this "compromise" FISA bill when he becomes President.  After all, the precedent has been set by Bush and he can always fall back on precedent in exercising his Administration's right to use the full power of the law.


by CyclingLeft on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 09:55:11 PM EST

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

What is so truly sad about Hillary supporters is this seemingly endless need to argue in a vacuum about the 'politic's of change' or the 'new politics'.

Since the great bulk of Hillary supporters have no real clue as to what drives Barack and his vision of politics what's left is this innane slogans and really bad displays of gotcha politics.

Folks, do us our favor.  Read "Rules for Radicals", then take a long, hard look at how Obama stares down his rivals, and then smile and be real happy with your Nominee.


by ChangeMatters on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 09:59:57 PM EST

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

Heh. Yeah and take a look at the Art of War as well.


"And I scream at the top of my lungs, what's going on?"
by Hollede on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 10:57:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The true candidate of change: changes at will when (2.00 / 1)

things get tough!


by suzieg on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 06:06:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (1.50 / 4)

The vast majority of Clinton supporters don't even know Hillary Clinton's positions, let alone other people's.


by GenaMeana on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:57:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

Oh yeah,

And try not to take too much pride in your cynicism.

It's not pretty and it certainly doesn't pass for intelligence.


by ChangeMatters on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 10:02:34 PM EST

Re: Obama Walks The Line (2.00 / 1)

Oh yeah, and do something about that smug arrogance.  It's not really helping anything.


by dembluestates on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 10:42:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

Obama has stated numerous times that he will not surround himself with yes-men. my<link href="http://www.flashlightcool.com/">Led Flashlight</link> is cool,haha


by yu26313171 on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 10:07:22 PM EST

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

What irks me so much about Hill supporters is, in a sense, what irks me about Hill and so many of the 'experienced' hands on the Right and Left.

Constantly being on the defensive when consensus-as a opposed to compromise- may be called for.

There is a better way and it begins with not demonizing, for fun or even for progressive change, your enemies.  

The blogsophere had better get used to Barack's style and it my thinking that when they see real change the constant chatter and griping will stop.


by ChangeMatters on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 10:15:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So, we have to accept the privatization of (2.00 / 1)

social security, no mandated health care, compromise? Why is it that conservatives do not compromise and get their way and are willing to go down in flames to achieve it, while progressives have to compromise even though they are the majority? I don't get that!


by suzieg on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 06:11:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama Walks The Line (none / 0)

 kind of thing that would give me some peace with this toilet paper.I like XBOX 360


by yu26313171 on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 10:13:01 PM EST

Obama is not a magician (none / 0)

Didn't the Senate already pass an even worse version of this bill by an overwhelming margin? I'm really not following where everyone feels like Obama could give a press conference and kill this bill.

Yes, he is the presumptive nominee.

But do you think for a minute that when he is the actual honest-to-god President he will be able to make bad bills vanish simply by picking up the phone? If so, please talk to me offline about a real estate deal. Even if he vetoed the damn thing it most likely has enough support for an override.

If I was guessing, Obama knows that there isn't a thing on god's green earth he can do to stop this bill and that going to the wall on it will just make him look weak and the party divided at a time when neither of those things are a good thing for our chances of winning the White House.

By all means, people should yell and put pressure on him to really bust his ass to get the immunity out of the bill, but at least stop and consider whether or not what you are demanding that he accomplish is possible. And if it is not possible, is making the grand gesture and going down in flames a good thing or a bad thing for our chances of recapturing the White House.

</soap box>


"Mom, baseball, apple pie, and a unified Democratic juggernaut."
by Purplepeople on Fri Jun 20, 2008 at 10:16:10 PM EST

For a win, you are willing to compromise (none / 0)

principle? Not me!


by suzieg on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 06:14:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: For a win, you are willing to compromise (1.75 / 4)

Haha - you supported Hillary Clinton who supported the original FISA bill.  Stop lying.


by GenaMeana on Sat Jun 21, 2008 at 10:42:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]